Sarah L. Edwards ([info]snickelish) wrote,
@ 2008-07-22 16:13:00
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Current mood: thoughtful
Entry tags:fandom: buffyverse, reading, thinky thoughts, writing, writing: theory

On symbolism vs. literalism, literary vs. genre
In which Sarah rambles a whole lot in a vague and only semi-coherent fashion.

I’ve been trawling the Internet for people with thoughts on Buffy and Angel. I found one person in particular who did fairly in-depth analysis of every ep as she watched it. It’s really interesting reading what she has to say, because we have diametrically opposite reactions to a lot of individual elements: I like Spike but can’t stand Angel, I love Buffy and tolerate Angel; she likes Angel but can’t stand Spike, she likes Buffy but adores Angel. Yet we tend to agree on which arcs and episodes were strongest - we both have a passionate (and, I suspect, idiosyncratic) love for the Buffy S2 ep "I Only Have Eyes for You" and we both rate "Blind Date" as the best ep of S1 Angel.

However, we think about the shows really differently. I tend to take a more, for lack of a better word, empathetic approach: I'm most interested in what the characters are thinking and feeling. I also spend a lot of time analyzing worldbuilding (a doomed pursuit in the Buffyverse, alas). Her approach goes a whole lot deeper and involves a whole lot of textual and visual analysis, watching for symbolism, etc. It’s fairly daunting to read her thoughts on a given episode, because my response to it all is much shallower than hers. On the other hand, I’m not convinced that everything is in the shows that she puts there. In particular, there were a few points in the Buffy S6 ep “After Life” that I flat disagreed with her on, and since this is the ep I’ve seen four or five times already, it’s one for which I feel I have decent grasp of most of what’s gone into it. So, it was comforting to think that I’m capable of not only thinking at that level, but thinking different thoughts than someone else thinking at that level.

The thing is, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t want to operate at that level all the time. That’s precisely the kind of thing I gratefully avoided when I changed majors from English to math. I really hate picking a work apart that way. Don’t get me wrong, I like it when insights come to me after the fact, but I’m most interested in fiction as a vicarious experience. This won’t quite make sense, but there’s something about that kind of analysis that frightens me, not intellectually but at a gut level. Maybe it’s because I live fiction vicariously - by breaking the sum up into its parts, it’s as though you’re breaking apart the reality of the experience I had. Maybe. Insert psychoanalysis here.

All this translates to the much more general fact that I take fiction literally - or at least, I take it literally first. If a story doesn’t make sense on a literal level, then I’m not much interested in what it’s saying symbolically. (In particular, I don’t like allegory, at least not as fiction - you can call it something else if you want, like "the encoding of information (opinion, debate) in narrative form.") Of course, there’s no neat dividing line between stories taken literally and stories taken symbolically, because many (most? all?) good stories work on both levels. What’s more, the emphasis placed on each level is on a continuum. And of course, a literal story that’s enhanced and enriched by its less literal elements is better than one that only works on the literal level. Once I’ve loved a story on its literal level, I’ll probably reread (or rewatch) it often enough to start looking for that deeper level of meaning. But if I don’t love it first, I probably won’t. (And, as I pointed out above, even if I do love it I often find others’ aggressive analysis threatening.)

What I guess I’m saying, though, is that I tend not to function on that level of critical analysis nearly as much, and I often have trouble appreciating it when others point it out to me. If I don’t see a connection for myself first, I never quite trust it - as I said above, I often don’t believe the original author put as much into something as the analyst is getting out of it. That’s even happened to myself, a time or two - I’ve gotten reviews and critiques from people that managed to find much deeper meaning in something I wrote than I ever meant. Which isn’t to say that some of the additional meaning might not have been subconscious. I do have a certain skepticism, though, about just how much subtlety people sometimes ascribe to the subconscious.

I think this literal vs. symbolic thing explains a lot about the genre/literary divide, and also about my personal tastes in fiction. Most genre readers, I think, want their fiction to make literal sense (although of course they may be interested in the other levels of meaning as well). We really are interested in the rocket ship, or the vampire, or the politics of the faux-medieval setting with dragons. As I keep complaining, the worldbuilding of Buffy makes no sense, is completely and repeatedly broken on just about any point you could name - but I suspect this is because, as I speculated a while back, Whedon was never really interested in vampires. He was interested in what he could use them to say.

I, on the other hand, am interested vampires - or at least, I’m pretty good at feigning interest while I’m in the middle of watching a show about them. That’s why I ask stupid questions like, “If vampires can’t breathe, how does Spike smoke?” Teasing out the mechanics is a game; it’s something I actually enjoy doing. It’s why a mathy friend and I once spent probably forty-five minutes trying to figure out why you need precisely seven coordinates to program the Stargate.

And I think this is why I tend to be skeptical of fiction with genre trappings written by non-genre writers: partly it’s that I expect them to sacrifice the literal story for the symbolic story. I don’t expect them to really be interested in the rocket ship; I expect them to use it for something else. And sometimes this works fine - I’d argue that the strength of most really good genre movies lies in the symbolic rather than the literal (Gattaca comes to mind). But often it results in a story that might make sense on some other level, but is disappointing on the literal level - and thus to genre readers like me. This is, to me, why pretty much anything Neal Stephenson writes ought to count as SF somehow - it’s because he’s so very interested in the literal elements he’s playing with, even if it has nothing to do with traditional SF tropes. I wonder if maybe this isn’t what Ellen Datlow means when she talks about fiction “with a science fiction sensibility.” (So am I now arguing that every author who’s actually interested in his/her story elements for themselves is SF? Um, not yet. But I betcha all those authors have some crossover audience with SF.)

Incidentally, another reason I find deep analysis threatening is that it makes me all kinds of self-conscious of my own fiction. I don’t even read at that level, much less write at it, so the thought that a story of mine is supposed to be making lots of sense on all those deeper levels is darned intimidating. And so, frankly, I just don’t think about it. Presumably, as I learn to read things at a deeper level and take more from them, I’ll (one hopes) naturally put some of that into what I write, either consciously or unconsciously. The inevitable conclusion is that, if I’m still writing in twenty years, I’ll look back at what I write now and be appalled at the lack of sophistication. But I can’t get there without first being here, so I just ignore the thought of my future embarrassment over early work, and I plunge ahead.

And, on another note, the taking-fiction-literally tendency is why I don't care for most slipstream. I often feel as though the author is secretly laughing at me for trying to take the premises at face value.

Whew. I'm pretty sure there are theories from literary criticism that say most of this more succinctly; feel free to chime in and tell me about them. Or that I'm nuts, or not taking x, y, and z into account. This is all very much in the pondering stage.




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[info]therinth
2008-07-23 03:28 am UTC (link)
For me it really depends on the author.

I have one story that has a girl with mercury tears, and people either buy into it and love it...or they come to a screeching halt and say "Mercury is poisonous!" (Which i know, but...)

It depends on the author's intent and how they sell it and i know i try to sell my own stuff on the levels that i can, plotting and characterization and stakes-ing, and just hope that when i need people to buy some complicated metaphor they will. Sometimes i get it right...othertimes, not so much ;).

I've recently become a part of a group that does genre and literary stuff, and sometimes i fall so hard on my face looking for genre things, it's not even funny. It's a good lesson for me to learn tho.

I guess what this comment is saying is, "I'm right there with you." (At least i hope that that's what it is seeming to say! ;))

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[info]snickelish
2008-07-23 07:10 pm UTC (link)
Good to know I have company. :)

Yeah, it does definitely depend on how the author tries to sell it. I wonder if maybe that matters a lot more than what the spec element actually is. China Mieville could put practically anything in his Bas-Lag books and I'd believe him. I think it may be idiosyncratic to the reader, too - if you wave the nanotech wand I'll believe almost anything, if the story's good, but I know that's not true of everyone.

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[info]mgsmurf
2008-07-23 05:44 pm UTC (link)
I think I tend, at least as you describe it, to look at things more for symbolism than literalism. In watching or reading if you present good characters and a good story, I'm likely to go along with the ride even if it doesn't make sense literally. Wrong biology being the one thing that would knock me out of that (unless it was a fantasy situation where I wasn't to care, like Buffy/Angel).

I don't look too deeply at either unless something really interests me, and then often the deep looking is to find the clue about what is at the heart of why something works. (I should go back and talk about Angel and my take on him, because it may explain to you why you dislike him.)

If I look that deep though, I usually will preface my opinions with, "this is how I see things" or some such. It is usually 'my take' on a character, relationship or plot point. How am I to really know the truth, if there is one? But theories and ideas are fun to discuss, and agree that end of day my version of Angel may not be yours, but all is still well.

As a writer myself, I think I often have to work to make the literalism work, to catch those readers who need it, because you do need that strengthened in SF. Or I have to go back and fill in the biology I BS'd through in first drafts. Symbolism is usually my starting point with an idea, then I flesh out the literalism to make it SF. I'd feel I had failed telling the story if those that see the symbolism were mislead in what it meant. If someone enjoys the story without getting the symbolism, usually I'm okay with that (unless perhaps it's an editor that just doesn't get it and thus found literal flaws that were not there had they gotten it).

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[info]snickelish
2008-07-27 07:52 pm UTC (link)
In watching or reading if you present good characters and a good story, I'm likely to go along with the ride even if it doesn't make sense literally.

I think maybe I should have prefaced this whole post with, "This is true of me, except when it isn't." I love a lot of Neil Gaiman's stuff, for example, and the whole foundation of his worlds is things making symbolic sense rather than literal sense. So yeah, good characters and good story will usually win me over regardless, for the values of "good" that I use. (g) Sigh. As I said, this was very much the beginning stages of a Thought.

(I should go back and talk about Angel and my take on him, because it may explain to you why you dislike him.)

I'd be most interested to read it if you did. I mean, I know what it is about him that I don't like, but I think if someone who did like him were to explain why I might be able to appreciate him more and find him marginally less irritating. After seeing S1 of Angel I wrote myself an essay explaining his characterization up to that point and speculating where the show would go take him from there. I felt much better. But then it didn't take him where I wanted it to, and I was back to flailing about and making annoyed sounds. :p

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[info]mgsmurf
2008-08-04 03:42 pm UTC (link)
Oh, Angel. From my thinking on the subject of his character, the key is his immaturity. Angel has the mentality of a teenage boy. He never matured past that faze in his real life, he still hasn't with or without a soul, and I don't see him growing up to the mature adult you sometimes glimpse he could be anytime soon. He's like a teenage peter pan in a vampire body.

When he's acting mature and responsible, he's a great hero and leader. Most of the time he's acting immature in some fashion about something or everything in his life. Luckily, he is a fairly good guy when he has a soul and usually does the mature and correct thing in the end.

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[info]snickelish
2008-08-04 05:39 pm UTC (link)
Yes! Yes! This is exactly what drives me nuts about him. I kept hoping that over the course of Angel he'd demonstrate some growth, but I'm not convinced he ever did - what he gained in minor epiphanies he always seemed to lose in the next crisis.

On the other hand, that immaturity goes a long way towards explaining his head-over-heels attraction to a teenage girl, and also why both sides of their relationship looked like a gawky teen romance.

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[info]mgsmurf
2008-08-04 06:28 pm UTC (link)
I think I see Angel much as I see Mal from Firefly. They're static characters in that the heart of what makes up their character is unchangeable. Perhaps their views or missions may change, but them as characters don't. Accept that they are who they are, and forever will be so, and I think it makes watching them easier.

I think the immaturity theory also works for Angel/Cordelia. He keeps trying to get up the nerve to really be with her just like a teen, and then him waiting leaves him with no Cordy.

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[info]praetorian1001
2008-07-23 10:37 pm UTC (link)
Symbolism is going to happen in any story you write, whether you want it to or not. Orson Scott Cards says this in How To Write Science Fiction and Fantasy (page 117), and I agree.

I think that's one of the reasons why literary criticism is so important; and also why authorial intent does not need to be taken into account when deconstructing literature. Writers, whether they intended to or not, will inevitably create symbols, themes, etc. in their work.

This might have something to do with the fact that writing fiction is a process of "choosing what's important" in life and in the world, as Nancy Kress recently blogged about. Every writer is going to choose different things, integrating those choices into the story consciously and unconsciously.

Personally, I like looking for symbols and such. I used to be surprised to find potential symbols in my own writing (though I'm writing these days).

Of course, as you said, none of that matters if the story makes no sense on the literal level first. That I agree with.

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[info]praetorian1001
2008-07-23 10:40 pm UTC (link)
...(though I'm writing these days).

Should say: though I'm not writing these days

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Part 1
[info]aranthe
2008-07-30 09:25 pm UTC (link)

I've tried to decide exactly what draws me to a book or movie; over time, I realized that it's the same thing that draws me to a work of art: layers and complexity. What I like in a work—whether it's a classic, mystery or speculative fiction—is a story that works on multiple levels.



I do want the literal level—or at least what I think of as the literal level, by which I mean a (fairly) non-contradictory, coherent throughline. One of the things I enjoy about Neil Gaiman is that I never get to the end and wonder what I've just read or watched (or why I bothered). Even with Mirror Mask, which functions very much in the world of symbol, there is a literal storyline. Many literary (as opposed to genre) works do function on that level. My problem with most contemporary literary work—at least the sort that was held up for inspection in my writing classes—isn't so much literal vs. symbolic as the fact that it is by and large filled with MFA prose, postmodern nihilism and characters for whom I have little or no affinity.



Of course, the literal isn't all I want (and with Gaiman, it's never all you get). I want layers: literal, thematic, symbolic, language, character. A story must function on the literal level, but I expect at least a couple of other layers to appeal to me as well. There are few stories which manage all of them, Ursula Le Guin's "Buffalo Gal's" and Chitra Banerjee Divakaruni's Mistress of Spices come to mind. Both have coherent storylines, interesting characters, are rich in symbol and theme and lyrical of voice. I may not spend the sort of time I did in English classes analyzing a story to bits, but I like there to be something there to analyze.



That said, when it comes to speculative fiction, I expect that I'm less demanding of the machanics in science fiction than many. I've no problem with tachyon networks or starships which can create their own wormholes as long as the author doesn't bore me with two pages of explanation about how they (supposedly) work or contradict the rules she or he has set up within the story. OTOH, if the writer is a literary Criss Angel, if she or he can misdirect me with verbal acumen. witty characters, etc., I'm more forgiving of mechanics. (The possible exception to that is when dealing with computers. As that's my own field, I do tend to get annoyed when someone says or does something really ignorant.)

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Poisson Processes
[info]aranthe
2008-07-30 09:27 pm UTC (link)

This won’t quite make sense, but there’s something about that kind of analysis that frightens me, not intellectually but at a gut level. Maybe it’s because I live fiction vicariously - by breaking the sum up into its parts, it’s as though you’re breaking apart the reality of the experience I had. Maybe. Insert psychoanalysis here.



Actually, this made perfect sense to me. I can certainly understand why someone would find it unnerving: It's a bit like watching a vivisection. You just don't want to see a story that is whole and living divvied up into little pieces until it dies from blood loss or trauma.



Admittedly, I enjoyed literary analysis. I'd have died of sheer boredom in college if it hadn't been for my English minor. The idea that someone might find meaning that the author didn't necessarily intend doesn't bother me so long as the critic recognizes it as his or her own inference. What did and does annoy me is when modern readers try to impute modern ideas to an author of a different historical period or analyze every story they read through the prism of their favorite ideological lens, attributing their interpretation to the author's original intent.



...another reason I find deep analysis threatening is that it makes me all kinds of self-conscious of my own fiction. I don’t even read at that level, much less write at it, so the thought that a story of mine is supposed to be making lots of sense on all those deeper levels is darned intimidating. And so, frankly, I just don’t think about it.



Good decision. Thinking about it will only make you self-conscious and one of the nice things about your stories is how authentic they are. I'm one of those readers who enjoys knowing or learning about an author's point of view and original intent because I find that it enhances my enjoyment of a story. That doesn't mean that I don't take away personal meaning, however. I just try to make a clear distinguish between what the author intends and what I read into a work when I'm analyzing it.

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Re: Poisson Processes
[info]aranthe
2008-07-31 09:26 pm UTC (link)

Wow. My sleep deprivation is really beginning to show. The subject line should have been "Part 2" and that last line should have read "I just try to make a clear distinction ..."

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Re: Poisson Processes
[info]snickelish
2008-07-31 09:46 pm UTC (link)
Tee hee. I was wondering if the subject header was supposed to have some deeper meaning, but I wasn't getting it. :) I'm still thinking on your comments and I'll reply when I have something to say.

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